Curse

Tenebrae · Jul 26, 2010, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I dont think its cause for discrimination but if you go somewhere , and want to trade or pug there you should speak that languages. Its just a matter of respect ; if ppl in English euro speaks english , then WTF are you doing talking in general with 1 or 2 in another language ?. General chat is for everyone so in English Euro , that chat should be english, same in France dist , German dist or whatever. For the rest , make a team or use pm.

Ichorspring · Jul 26, 2010, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missmelady

I beg to differ with this. If you live in say germany, it may be unpractical for you to learn English if you are never A. Going anywhere that speaks English. B. Not someone that requires English for the job. C. It is a Fing video game get over yourself.

Although this is true, it doesn't change the fact that when you're in Germany, you stand a pretty good chance of bumping into people who can speak at least a little English. While I was there, I'd say maybe one in five people I met couldn't speak a word of it. It doesn't mean that that four out of five needed it for work purposes, only that English is omnipresent. It gets picked up simply because it is so widely used. It has nothing to with it being a "better" language than others.

Remember, the British Empire of the past was one of the furthest reaching cultural influences in history. The language took root in a lot of little nooks and crannies across the globe. It didn't always supplant the indigenous regional languages, but certainly made it's share of inroads.

Back to the topic, if people wanted to type in Swahili in public chat (were that possible), I couldn't care less. I don't care what the district is labelled, people can communicate in any way they choose, it's none of my business. In a group though, I'd certainly want to be understood, so if a person can manage at least broken English, that's good enough for me.

Why this is an issue is beyond me. Live and let live, ffs.

Snow Bunny · Jul 26, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

If you join a pug in an American district that is primarily comprised of people whose primary language is English, you should be able to speak English.

Screw your multiculturalism, I care more about efficiency.

colosusjokers · Jul 26, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I personally don't see a problem with other languages. The main kind of people I can see trying to flame and troll others based off of it are sorry schmucks such as the kind that dasmitchies made himself out to be in his post.

Under certain circumstances however it is to be expected that the people would have a common language. Unless you don't have a district for your own language it is just stupid to be in one that isn't one for your language with the exception of if there isn't anyone in the district that is for that language. Even then though it is a minor inconveniance at best. If it helps invite the guy to your group and pretend he is one of those two pill bugs from "a bugs life". You know, the ones that didn't really speak the same language as everyone else but managed to be funny as hell.

Aleta · Jul 26, 2010, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safer Saviour

That wasn't the first time I've successfully grouped with players who don't speak my language. I'm English, I've played for four years and it wasn't always so easy to jump to the American server and find people speaking my language. Playing with French, German, Dutch etc. players can still be fun and you can still accomplish whatever you're setting out to do.

This part

Actually it's great fun and always interesting! Sadly this isn't the only online game that gets people screaming about language. Lately on EQ2 there is a huge outcry although only a few people that are ticked because a French guild advertise in French.

No Biggie sheesh.

Ignore is your friend

Swahnee · Jul 26, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Huge wall of text here. Jump to the end if you don't care about my delirium.

I always though that the "all chat" was inteded to be a mean to let someone say something interesting for everybody in the district (but, as always, i can be wrong), so i will assume in the rest of my post that the all chat has this meaning. I'm annoyed when i see people having personal conversations in the all chat, for the same reason why people can be temp banned if they use the all chat to sell/buy. If people keep saying their own business in all chat it becomes more difficult for everybody to see the "important" messages that somebody else is saying (which means the messages which are important for everybody in the district). Talking in "all chat" isn't like me and my friends visiting a foreign city and talking to each other in our language, because, even if we yell (and it would be a very unpolite thing to do IMHO, because we would disturb other people without any reason) people who stand at the other side of the place wouldn't hear us, with all the noise coming from cars, people chatting, etc. , so we wouldn't disturb everybody in that place (maybe only those who stand near us). In GW, instead, if you say something in all chat, everybody in the district will clearly "hear" that, and i think that this is an important difference with the real world to take into account.

However, now it comes the problem of what it would happen if someone has something to say, worth for anybody to hear. In the general case, inside a crowded district you will find people of many different languages, so if we want to say something important for all people (and i keep thinking that this is the use of the all chat) we have to choose a conventional language that everybody is able to understand. Please, notice that this has nothing to do with culture, discrimination or whatever: it's the simple fact that if you have something important to say, you have to use a language that anybody can understand. From this point of view, i see no problem in choosing the language district as the language that you assume that everybody (you want to talk to) is able to understand.

The problem that arises now is that it's very difficult that "everybody" in a district can understand any chosen language, so it will very often happen that your message won't reach all the people you intended to reach. For example, if i travel to the german district (for any reason) and somebody says something important for all to hear, it's highly likely that i won't understand anything. But this is something we have to deal with.

So, what i do is to bring the problem to a different level, because in my opinion it has nothing to do with language discrimination, but with the meaning of the all chat. As i said before, if you use the all chat to say your own business with your friends, you are making more difficult for other people to catch the important messages that pass through that chat, regardless of whatever language you are using. If you want to say something important for all, instead, you are forced (by the circumstances, not by me) to use a language that you assume a lot of people is able to understand.

The next question is: why someone could want to use in the all chat a language he clearly sees that nobody speaks (and likely very few understand)? In can think about two cases: the first is when you don't know any other language, or you don't know that the other people in that district speak that language, and in this case i agree that people who yell at strangers are idiots, because it takes nothing to inform politely those strangers that if they are trying to say something important, nobody is understanding them, so they should change language. The second case is when people are talking with friends about their own business, so they do it in their language. If the all chat is meant to be a mean to give important messages to every people in that place, this attitude is very unpolite IMHO, because it only adds noise to the chat, so people should avoid it. But i want to reapeat another time that this thing is unpolite also if you do it in the language of the district: it has nothing to do with discrimination.

Post compendium.

So, the main theme of my post, as you have seen, is the meaning of the all chat. In the end, my thoughts are these:

1-If the all chat is meant to give important messages to all people in the district, everybody should try to understand what is the language that most people understand in that district, and use it. If you can't, then you have no way to give your message to those people, so why to speak in the first place (in that chat)?

2-If the all chat is meant to be a "place" where people can say funny things, joke, take part in stupid flamewars about some stupid argument, have fun watching other people taking part in stupid flamewars about some stupid argument, etc.., then i don't see why people shouldn't talk in whatever language they want. In this case, i don't see any good reason to force people to stop using a language which isn't understood by the majority, because we assume that there is no "important" message to read, so they do no harm at all. Then, if someone is annoyed by the chat, he should just simply turn off it, because, again, it's unlikely that something important will be said.

Dzjudz · Jul 26, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Why would a Dutch person talking to another Dutch person write in English? It makes no sense. If you can't understand the language in all chat, it is not directed at you (well except for lame flamers I guess). 99% of Dutch people on GW probably know English, but many of them (especially younger ones) aren't fluent in English or are slow to translate their thoughts in English.

@Tenebrae: making a team or whispering is impossible for purposes such as guild recruiting or general chatting with more people than party size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

not dissing on the dutch but why not just whisper to each other instead of filling up the chat with your nonsense - would you mind passing that on to your fellow dutch people

Ah so you classify all foreign input as 'nonsense'. Makes sense ([Caveman Voice]MAHH! CANNOT UNDASTAND!! STOOPID GIBBERISH, STUFFS OUTSIDE BORDER DOES NOT MATTER![/Caveman Voice]). Also, try to imagine sending everything you say in all chat to tons of people via whisper; pretty difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Do tourist stand on the town square yelling in their native language.. I never noticed that where I live.

I don't know about 'yelling on the town square', but I usually converse with my family in Dutch (Frisian actually, but you get the point) when I'm on holiday in France or Italy for example.

RedDog91 · Jul 26, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

Almost everybody in the world learned (or even is learning) English at scholl, and English is the international language. Most important sites are either in English or partly in English. People not able to speak Korean, Japanse, Chinese, French, German or Spanish should make efforts to speak English, as it's really unacceptable to not be able to communicate in English today.

Only about 1 billion of the 6.5 billion people on the planet speak English.
Mandarin is the the most widely used language, coming at 1.3 billion speakers.

So if you want to argue that they should use the most common language, then they should use Mandarin.

Dzjudz · Jul 26, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Well there's not much point in arguing that the 'Western International Language' (i.e. the language spoken in Europe and North America when foreign people talk to each other) is English. Take a look at the internet and video games. If you have an international pug in GW, you usually speak English.

That, however, is not the issue at hand.

The argument some people put forward is that all people should speak English, even when it is not their first language and they are speaking to people with the same first (or second) language.

Beren985 · Jul 26, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Being from Barcelona (Catalan is my mother tongue, Spanish my almost-mother tongue and I learnt some English over the years), I know language is a sensible issue, if only because it is something that you can very easily point out in order to discrimiate someone.

I myself could not care less if there is someone speaking dutch in the English (or Spanish) district: what they are saying is none of my business, since they are clearly not trying to communicate with me.

Language should be used to communicate and unite different people, using it to separate people completely defeats the whole point of a language.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

([Caveman Voice] MAHH! CANNOT UNDASTAND!! STOOPID GIBBERISH, STUFFS OUTSIDE BORDER DOES NOT MATTER! [/Caveman Voice]).

Priceless!

gremlin · Jul 27, 2010, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safer Saviour

No. Certainly not if you're just visiting.

Where on earth do you get this? There are people in the world who never attend school and of those that do, there are many who are either never offered the opportunity to learn English or who choose to take another language instead. For instance, many Japanese schools offer French but not English and a French student might choose to take German or Spanish instead of English. There are also many students who do take English, but never develop at it.

Oh, and a number of large, influential sites (e.g. Japan's 2chan and the 'human flesh' engines in China) aren't in English and most of the really important sites offer multiple languages.

I agree
English may well be one of the top five or so languages in the world "thinking about number of speakers here"
But its only an International language in some areas, notably captaining a ship and piloting a commercial aircraft.
Both areas where it makes sense for there to be a common language.

I am against spamming a foreign language "including English in an area set aside for some other language.
But I welcome any tourists to the English sector.

Grav · Jul 27, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Anyone upset at other people speaking languages they don't understand is probably just butthurt at not being able to impress them with whatever exciting new meme they just read about on 4chan.

Me, I don't mind it at all. It's actually kinda humbling but in a good way, when you realise that the real world is bigger than the world that you merely have the capacity to understand. Hell, when I played Eve I used to see so much Russian that I actually tried learning to read cyrillic (with limited success, but hey

).

Diversity should be celebrated, not marginalised.

bitchbar player · Jul 27, 2010, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

But its only an International language in some areas, notably captaining a ship and piloting a commercial aircraft.
Both areas where it makes sense for there to be a common language.

Unfortunately this isn't true, try flying into South America or China, good luck with your english because Airtraffic Control wont understand you.

Kawil · Jul 27, 2010, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Speak whatever language you wish in all chat...that is what it's for. My experience with people who don't understand other languages spoken in chat is that they're simply afraid of what they don't know. Paranoia is especially rampant in so-called "English" districts and (again in my XP and OP) by Americans (being afraid of being "taken over"). Being an American who speaks English as well as Spanish all I can say to those that don't understand is: Cada chango a su columpio. Or: To each his own.

Amaurosis · Jul 27, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Basically yes, based on the fact that I don't understand it.

Sure but you dont force everyone else to listen to you, by talking in general chat you are.

No but people talking in general chat are talking to everyone, not just to the guy they think they talk to.

Not understanding something makes it nonsense? Completely wrong. At most not understanding something only makes you unaware, or in your case ignorant. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean another person doesn't as well.

And talking in all chat doesn't force people to listen to you. If you see someone speaking in foreign tongue and you don't understand you can simply ignore what they are posting. However the problem you and everyone else have is your inability to tolerate it. You don't, and that's why some people are posting in this thread about " If you're in American District, you must speak English". If I see people communicating in a foreign language(even if they were talking about me) I wouldn't concern myself with it. Yet you and everyone else does, which is your problem not the individuals speaking in their native tongue.

Talking in general chat doesn't mean your talking to everyone as well, to believe so otherwise is trivial. The only time I've ever seen anyone use all chat to address the entire district is when guild recruiting. According to you anyone who has ever posted anything in all chat has done so with the clear intent of addressing everyone in that district, which is obviously not true.

Dame Laureline · Jul 27, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Hey, there's still debate here about a point nobody should even debate ? More annoying, there's a very bad tone from some people here.

Why districts are named with a language name if the language is irrelevant ? Face it, it's only lame to think a 'French' district is here to be spammed by 'English' writings.

Quote:

Some of you have the audacity to demand that foreign players learn english or stay out of the district?

Not really. We merely ask people in any district to speak whatever the district language is or to not use chat channels.
Well, what would happen if half a dozen people start to post on guildwarsguru in Italian ? How many time before their post would be moderated and the users warned ? How many time before they get banned if they keep on ?
Language is the main mean of communication between people. I'm old enough to know that I waste my time to fail to communicate with people sharing no common language with me.

Quote:

Only about 1 billion of the 6.5 billion people on the planet speak English.
Mandarin is the the most widely used language, coming at 1.3 billion speakers.

So if you want to argue that they should use the most common language, then they should use Mandarin.

Confusion between first language and known languages. Many people in the world can write/read/speak more than one language. So these numbers are irrelevant ...

Quote:

The only time I've ever seen anyone use all chat to address the entire district is when guild recruiting.

Maybe also asking for help, looking for informations ?

gremlin · Jul 27, 2010, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Having traveled a fair bit I made a point of always getting a phrase book so I could be fairly polite and also so I could order drinks.

Ok mainly so I could always order a beer

But I did find that if you made an attempt to communicate in their language life was so much easier and I made a fair number of friends too.

All I ask is that if someone in the English district wants to talk to me they make the same effort at communication that I do.

GW English districts all nations welcome and I hope I am welcome in yours.

Tenebrae · Jul 27, 2010, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

making a team or whispering is impossible for purposes such as guild recruiting or general chatting with more people than party size.

Eh ? i dont think you understood what i said.
Why you want to recruit for example spanish players on american dist ? . General chat is for all , and general chatting with more ppl than party size in another language that is not the main language of the dist is .... kinda rare.
Numbers dont matter , if most of the ppl in X dist speaks X language , even if you are 3 or 10 .... you should respect that and pm , party or in case you cant , go to that dist language.
Ppl dont have to listen to private conversations between ppl in a diff language in general chat , mainly because keeping that conversation in a diff language so "general chat ppl" dont understand and cant say a word IS kinda private

majoho · Jul 27, 2010, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaurosis

Not understanding something makes it nonsense? Completely wrong. At most not understanding something only makes you unaware, or in your case ignorant. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean another person doesn't as well.

Just take things out of context, if I don't understand it it IS nonsense to me, obviously by definition it isn't but that's besides the point.

Quote:

And talking in all chat doesn't force people to listen to you. If you see someone speaking in foreign tongue and you don't understand you can simply ignore what they are posting.

And we're back to good manners and courtesy again, you don't get it and apparently I can't explain it well enough.

Quote:

Talking in general chat doesn't mean your talking to everyone

Yes it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

You're talking about courtesy but you're me calling me stupid only because we disagree. Wow, if this is courtesy...

I called what you said stupid because it was utter nonsense and not related to anything.

Dzjudz · Jul 27, 2010, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Sure but you dont force everyone else to listen to you, by talking in general chat you are.

Let's say I'm with my family on the town square where you live (where I presume the country language is English). You stand next to us. I speak to my family in Frisian. You overhear us. Do you go: "OMG speak English I cannot understand you. You are being so inconsiderate!"

No.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

He could like talk to him directly.

What if 10 Dutch people converse with another? Person #1 wants to say something. He has to send that to 9 other people via whisper? Then person #2 wants to respond. He has to send that to 9 other people via whisper? Then person #7 responds the same thing as #2 because he hasn't gotten the second whisper yet and sends his message to 9 other people via whisper. Then person #4 wants to say something but doesn't know the exact IGN of all 9 other people.

Seriously, you don't see any problems with the "Make a team or use whisper" argument?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Why you want to recruit for example spanish players on american dist ?

Where do you think Dutch people have to go to recruit for their guilds? The Dutch district? If you're going to say International District, try going there yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

General chat is for all , and general chatting with more ppl than party size in another language that is not the main language of the dist is .... kinda rare.

Not really rare in Euro-English districts. Especially in Kamadan, where the party size is 4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

All I ask is that if someone in the English district wants to talk to me they make the same effort at communication that I do.

Again: if Dutch people want to communicate with English speaking people, do people here really think they would do that in Dutch? Really? If someone is speaking Dutch, they are not communicating with you. (not directed at you gremlin but to certain others in this thread, I just thought your quote nicely conveyed their point)